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duci
Forum Admin
172 Posts |
 Posted - 03/09/2008 : 23:36:51
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Abstract.
Near Cluj-Napoca, in a well known antic site, a seal with a cross was found in a gepidic tomb.The exhibition is very recent. This is related to the Getic logo on antic coins. Moreover the site corresponds to the description of old Dacian Sarmizegetusa. This supports the statement of Jordanes that Gots and Gets are the same kin (rulers). This also suggests that a better model for the incoming of Gepids in Transylvania is reconsidering the hypothesis by Gibbon on historical Odin: a better fit is given by the king Duras of Dacia which left the kingdom of Dacia to Decebalus in 87AD.
The need for the guess of an east germanic tribe to explain historical events is eliminated. Only rulers, feuds and wars, but no "migration" as incoming data. The direction is two-wards.
The global interpretation of the data in the National Museum of History of Transylvania along with the pictures on the Trajan's column supports the interpretation that the religion of the Dacians (and threfore Gets) was Mithraic.
1. Getas Basileis
1a. Sarmizegetusa. More at http://download.academic.ro/Vlaha/index.htm
We try to bring to life the significance of such words as "sighet" - engl. creek and sarmas-salted water which apparently enter in the name of Sarmizegetusa, the alleged capital of the last Dacian king Decebalus.
These words remained through time in the language of the shepherds and remained intact as basic geographic notions, a matter of life and death for these people.
Sarmis denotes the 4 Somes rivers in Transylvania: the Grand, Small, Warm and Cold. Moreover Särmas is a frequent village name.
Sarmas means salted water. It is very frequent since Transylvania is the bottom of the sarmatic sea.
We have today: Saliste,Sarata, Saratura, Saratel, Sarateni, Sarile, Sarmas (5), Sarmasel, Sarmasag.
We have not found (yet) Sargetel and Sarmagel or Sarmagâta (look at Trajan's Sargetia).
Sarmatau is impossible, since 'tau' denotes a source of flowing water.
Therefore, Sarmis should be a small river, passing near a salt deposit; Sargetia (sargâtza-in today Romanian), a small river near the citadell (where the treasure was hidden) may be found, but not a creek of 2 salted rivers. Perhaps they meant the Somes but the combination Somesseged didn't sound enough triumphalistic.
Let us continue with the sighet word. It denotes a confluence:
Szeged in Hungary- confluence of Mures and Tisa
Sighisoara (small confluence) Tarnava Mica and Shes
Sighetu Marmatiei Tisa and Iza
Sighetu Silvaniei (near Zalau) Crasna and Zalau
Sighii (plural, called SIBIU on maps- an incompetent alteration of the original romanian name), many afluents of the Cibin River
We get the word SIGHET in dacian, suggesting that today romanian is actually the same old dacian.
Therefore, we have 3 hypothesis for the confluence of then two Sarmis/Somes :
- Near DEJ (confluence of Grand Somes/Sarmis with Small Somes/Sarmis). We know that Trajan destroyed the Dacian citadel and build a Roman
Castrum. No convincing traces were found there however.
- Confluence of Warm Somes with Cold Somes at Gilau. One also has a smaller river passing by, called today Sarata which may be the antic Sargetia where Decebal hided his treasure. It is well in the mountains.
There is an old stone fortress there, called "Cetatea Fetei" - uninvestigated archeologically perhaps assigned to another Romanian hero, Voievod Gelou, beatten by hungarians in 895. However, there is a Roman castrum founded in 106 AD by Trajan there.
The nearby village Vlaha suggests a matrix of old Transylvanian voyevodate.
At Dabâca, at 30 km away of both Cluj-Napoca and Gilau another fortress, also assigned to Gelou may be found. We mention that in Transylvania (family) names are formed starting with the village of origin while surnames are given. Thus, Ioan Giloan is John from Gilau and Ioan Calborean is John from Calbor. Thus Gelou may be the family name of the IX-th century hero. BUT, for Dabâca, the name of the natives is formed as Däbalä. Thus we get the origin of the name of the last Dacian King and his village, which ressembles to Decebalus.
I encountered such a contraction of sounds personally: Gordes from Gheorghies, because the special group Ghe (or Dece in our case) is negligently pronounced. This also explains the origin of the dacians people name.
When Decebalus lost the fortress, he left, but was captured by Romans at 60 km away at Porolissum, i.e Moigrad today. This would'nt be possible with the Roman army at Hunedoara at 300 km away.
Therefore we believe having indicated the proper location of Decebal's last fight.
Dabâca always had an important administrative role, including in the middle ages, when it was center of a comitate (county). While the antic water pipe is still functioning today, there is no Somes-Sighet there and no salted water. It might be the village of origin of Decebalus. (i.e. both Decebalus and Gelou mastered both Gilau and Däbâca citadels, separated by 30km).
Thus everything happened near Cluj-Napoca, which is a very populated area. Chances to find huge treasuries or artefacts are scarce. However, the History Museum there may supply lot of encouraging evidence.
b. In previous posts I showed that Jordannes "Galtis on Aucha" (Aluta) corresponds to Galati, near Fagaras and that Flautasis (Raftsmen) corresponds to the Bistritza/Cogeanus south border of Moldavia before 1500. Galtis in the antic acception (e.g. in Sapain) should be taken as betten earth citadel.
c. In sept 2006, a fabulous site was discovered in Floresti, near Cluj-Napoca, Romania. A few month before that I have published that the location (see 1a above) corresponds to the same site.
The exhibition of the artefacts shows a seal with a cross which undoubtely means the seal of the Gets, according to poorly documented antic coins which bear the same logo and the label "Getas ...Basileis". These coins were also found in Babylon, also in agreement with Jordannes on the wars with Ramses (lost reference-volunteer needed):
- seal:
- back of seal:
- coin:
mz-tr_p7.jpg, ici.ro
Nearby, the largest gepid necropola (500 tombs), the antic Napoca,attested former gepid royal residences. See also Erdely Tortenete (http://mek.oszk.hu/02100/02109/html/17.html - the english version is incomplete: Mihacs garden denotes the garden of the local landlord, 10 km upstream).
2.d. Orhodoxian christian canonic representation of "Christ as a judge" consists in Christ dressed with a robe painted with crosses in circles or squares. I suggest this is a canonic posture for a ruling Voyevoda (Basileus)-not Zeus on coins.
2.Historical Odin revisited
2.a. Vlahii Sarmatae are a people appearing in north Transylvania on the Tabula Peutingeriana. Also the prince of Vlachs appears in Niebelungen Lied. A hill(stone) near Cluj Napoca bears the name of Feleak (closer to the sanskrit Valaka). The meaning of Vlaha/ ValaKa is a diminutive for valley and is not quite unique to the Cluj Napoca surroundins, but fits with Valaskialf of Woden who is supposed to be a king not a shepherd.
In Romanian, Woda (see Wodan) comes from Voie-va-da(u)(I allow you to ...)- meaning judge or ruler. Not slavian warrior. The slavs (Carintia) had Voievoda as rulers/Judges not as warriors !
2.b. Duru(yielding Duras), from "a durui" means thunder/make thunder noise in Romanian, e.g. Duruitoare=water fall, etc. This fits the war name of Wodan, Thor.
2.c. Wodan appears in Denmark after 88AD whiled Duras leaves Dacia in 87 AD, after beating Fuscus, an event marked in Jordannes. Since a hiatus appears among the rulers, north and south Alutus (today Olt) it is normal to have a Jordannes ignoring the northen kingdom conquered by the Romans.
2.d. Transylvania (Dacia), similarly to Denmark is the only kingdom where the people is called scithians (siculy >>>seklars today), dacians and gets altogether along with RUNES.
2.e. The elder futark rune42. Järsberg Stone (1st half of the 6th century)
"C1: /// ubaR hite: harabanaR
C2: hait ///
C3: ek erilaR
C4: runoR w
C5: aritu"
contains the word "harabanaR". This may be taken as today's Romanian "Darabantz"- eagle. The Presidential Guard in Romania is called today "1. Darabanti" - with the secondary sense of heroes: "800000 dorabantz fell for the union of Romania in WWI".
Along with this one, many other elder futark runes contain the invocation "haide" (let's ... (do something) in Romanian).
2.d. It is believed that Transylvania comes from hungarian Erdely. However the today name of Transylvania, as kept by Romanians is ARGHEAL (currently Ardeal, as Sibiu for Sighiu and yielding erdely). There are many toponimics in Transylvania with arg: Argheal, Arghies, Aghires, Agarbiciu, Arghies(Ariesh). In romanic languages it means silver, but the toponimics match better the sanskrit description of divine or sweet.
Therefore I advance the hypothesis that the tradition assigned to Odin of naming Sweden after his country shoud mean sweet or divine.
2.e. This origin of Odin explains the interest of its inheritors for the "gepidic" kingdom-Transylvania- and the joke mentioned by Jordannes which only has meaning in Romanian ("what the heck").
2f. The first mention of a "voloke"(see 2a) tribe in 168AD appers also in Erdely Tortenete as "victovoloke". The "east germanic" attribute deduced by the authors is ignored in this paper and should be regarded as doubtfull and far fetched.
2.g. A review of the sagas reveals mistic aspects of Mithraic origin (the serpent) which also appears in Etruscan and Dacian artefacts. I charge that "Draco" (the Dacian Flag, Dracia>>Dacia, Drakkar for viking ships) means Nidhog, actually-the devil, the underground worm of death.
2.h. I deduce that Vareg might mean "Varec", little cousin.
2.g. There is a Vlaherne quarter in Constantinopole from antic times. Tradition says it was founded by a Voievoda. There is a Voievoda road
in Constantinopole(today Istanbul).
Discussion and conclusions
1. Data in Jordannes is rather accurate, yielding a fabulous contribution to the history of Dacia and Romania.
2. Skilled Romanian language is also required to back substitute antic Greek and Latin references.
3. As a concept,"Gothic" should represent a language spoken in the west, rulers and personel, and may be German not Romanian. The migration hypothesis is not neccessary, just adjustment of the "historical Odin" issue. Gracious thanks to Prof. Nordgren for his implicit suggestion.
4. I stress that antic and feudal rules speak what language they pleased, bought whatever jewelry they liked and therefore no conclusion may be dram as to the 'national language' of the inhabitants of the feud, BUT for toponimics.
5. A semantic difference may appear between the house of Odin-Goths on one side and the local families-Gets, the difference beeing obscure apart at the level of ruling families and does not apply to commons.My guess is that Vulfilla may have or not visited Romania, but he did preach to rulers not Romanian shepherds(whatever their mother tongue).
6. Romanians do not call themselves as Gets or Vlachs; this supports my previous statement that "get" means of clear ancestry (OK for gentry) and Vlach and derivatives a feud.-I put it in Cluj, yielding later the Gelu's Voievodate and later the Doboka(Decebalus fief)- Solnok duchy.
REFERENCES
-Volunteers needed. The list is too long for a post.
(c) D. Ciurchea 2008
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Prof.Dr. D. Ciurchea
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Blurall
Starting Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2009 : 22:02:19
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Gepids
Dacians and Romans life in Middle Ages is not so well documented. Yet, details about it can be found with Jordanes [51]
Interesting details are provided with Gepids
It is possble to be one of the free Dacians tribes, “’Getae and Gepidae are kinsmen” [51]
Gepids emerged in history after Daco-Romans wars and living in Dacia in 6th century by the time of Jordanes
It is known that Free Dacian tribes (one of them Carpi tribe) were allied with Goth and with Huns when invading Roman Empire
With PIE-Dacian phonetic changes it can be seen that J derived from G (see also gi-giupan and j-jupan meaning master) Jordanes language was a 6th century language
See Romanian Dictionary for words jepi, jap, jarpan, japsa aso
· gepanta became jepanta / japanita
· Gepid became pronounced Jepizi
Jordanes about Gepids meaning and language
“Hence it came to pass that gradually and by corruption the name Gepidae was coined for them by way of reproach” “for in their language gepanta means slow.” maybe a form japanit – [51]
· Romanian word jap, bătrîn ramolit - meaning old man, slow, sluggish
· Romanian word jebos, adj. bolnav, moleşit meaning sick, sleepy
· jarpăn (var. jerpan, jerpănos, and jegos), s.m. horse slow and old
· jaba f. sickness of sheeps that causes sleeps and makes meat
“the word Gepidae arose as a gratuitous name of reproach”
· Romanian word Jupan 1. polite title specific in Romanian provinces for high rank persons
“In the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers”
· Scythia was often named the area of Getae (see also Scytia Minor=Dobrogea)
“ This island they called, in the speech of their fathers, Gepedoios”
· Romanian words japşe = small depression (lke an island) with rich water vegetation filling out with water from time to time in Danube Delta, and not only
· Also, (var. japcă, japină), iaz, baltă meaning lake, pound
These words are explained also by the continuous presence of Daco-Romanians in Dacia
· Ardaric has a Latin ending –ic that means belonging to (It’s possible he was from Ardeal)
· Fastida is also a Latin name meaning either luxurios (Fast/Fastuos) or Strong
The same way, the unknow etymology of jep/jepi could be explained by a proto-form Ghep / Ghimpe thorny tree
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Blurall
Starting Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2009 : 22:04:37
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In materialul strans despre Brasov care poate fi vazut la http://baloianu.wordpress.com/2009/06/06/brasov/
Gepids
Dacians and Romans life in Middle Ages is not so well documented. Yet, details about it can be found with Jordanes [51]
Interesting details are provided with Gepids
It is possble to be one of the free Dacians tribes, “’Getae and Gepidae are kinsmen” [51]
Gepids emerged in history after Daco-Romans wars and living in Dacia in 6th century by the time of Jordanes
It is known that Free Dacian tribes (one of them Carpi tribe) were allied with Goth and with Huns when invading Roman Empire
With PIE-Dacian phonetic changes it can be seen that J derived from G (see also gi-giupan and j-jupan meaning master) Jordanes language was a 6th century language
See Romanian Dictionary for words jepi, jap, jarpan, japsa aso
· gepanta became jepanta / japanita
· Gepid became pronounced Jepizi
Jordanes about Gepids meaning and language
“Hence it came to pass that gradually and by corruption the name Gepidae was coined for them by way of reproach” “for in their language gepanta means slow.” maybe a form japanit – [51]
· Romanian word jap, bătrîn ramolit - meaning old man, slow, sluggish
· Romanian word jebos, adj. bolnav, moleşit meaning sick, sleepy
· jarpăn (var. jerpan, jerpănos, and jegos), s.m. horse slow and old
· jaba f. sickness of sheeps that causes sleeps and makes meat
“the word Gepidae arose as a gratuitous name of reproach”
· Romanian word Jupan 1. polite title specific in Romanian provinces for high rank persons
“In the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers”
· Scythia was often named the area of Getae (see also Scytia Minor=Dobrogea)
“ This island they called, in the speech of their fathers, Gepedoios”
· Romanian words japşe = small depression (lke an island) with rich water vegetation filling out with water from time to time in Danube Delta, and not only
· Also, (var. japcă, japină), iaz, baltă meaning lake, pound
These words are explained also by the continuous presence of Daco-Romanians in Dacia
· Ardaric has a Latin ending –ic that means belonging to (It’s possible he was from Ardeal)
· Fastida is also a Latin name meaning either luxurios (Fast/Fastuos) or Strong
The same way, the unknow etymology of jep/jepi could be explained by a proto-form Ghep / Ghimpe thorny tree
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Historical Odin
